Hi, so I have been relearning Japanese with renshuu for a little while, doing my daily reviews and exploring the app. The more I do this the more options I find to optimize my learning, but now I am finding it a bit overwhelming.
I started with the recommended JLPT decks, merching them whenever I run out of new cards. That way I am now almost through N3 for Kanji and in the middle of N4 for vocab. Vocab going way slower because of number of terms as well as learning vectors. I also added a small mining deck where I add intresting words I come across elsewhere.
I opted for a meaning only approach to learning kanji until now, but after reading a few forum posts I am not sure if that is an efficient way to go about it. Additionally I am getting a bit frustrated with vocab term I have already learned in hiragana, resetting whenever I learn related kanji. (at least I think this is what is happening?) I know why that is and it makes perfect sense since obviously I need to now learn the new spelling, but it is annoying since I am trying to bring the number of daily reviews down before adding new vocab and it just feels like shoveling water out of a leaking boat, if that makes sense.
I saw people recommending kanji helper decks for this issue, but I am not entirely sure how to go about this.
If I create a kanji helper deck out of my merched vocab N5N4 deck would that include all kanji appearing in the deck even those I have already learned through the N5 kanji deck? If yes it should be fine to delete the standard N5 kanji deck without 'abandoning' any kanji to the void, right?
Also, if I merch again with the N3 vocab in the future, would the kanji helper deck update accordingly or would I have to create a new deck again?
I'm telling you what I did because I faced the same problems as you.
A couple months ago I created a single vocabulary deck with every word from N5 to N1 Renshuu's schedules. Then, a single kanji helper deck. Every day I learn 20 new terms and their corresponding kanji (only their meaning). I should have learned all the 9000~ words in a year and less than a half.
This way I have always only two decks and nothing else, ever. Besides, now I don't have to study grammar to learn new words. For me it's good because I use other sources for learning grammar.
I have a 56 days streak now so the number is still increasing, I believe. For now I have a little more than 100 reviews a day. Once it becomes too much I might stop learning new words for a week or two.
I saw people recommending kanji helper decks for this issue, but I am not entirely sure how to go about this.
If I create a kanji helper deck out of my merched vocab N5N4 deck would that include all kanji appearing in the deck even those I have already learned through the N5 kanji deck? If yes it should be fine to delete the standard N5 kanji deck without 'abandoning' any kanji to the void, right?
Also, if I merch again with the N3 vocab in the future, would the kanji helper deck update accordingly or would I have to create a new deck again?
my understanding is that renshuu keeps track of your progress on items even when they appear in multiple schedules. if you learn a kanji in one schedule, and it also appears in a different schedule, renshuu knows that you’ve already learned that. the same goes for vocab.
and the kanji helper deck gets updated automatically when i add new words to the vocab list that it’s generated from.
but i don’t know how it works if you merge the helper schedule with a normal kanji schedule.
Every terms are tracked independently in renshuu's database. When you review a term, it get scheduled according to that schedule setting. So when a review is due, terms get rescheduled according to the first schedule where you study them. And when you merged schedules, it just doesn't affect the terms in it. Schedule exist on top of the database but don't affect them the terms directly until you review them.
Also regarding your other question, yeah, you will be fine :D Renshuu will keep track of all your terms no matter how you "play" or "experiment" with the schedules :3 It's even somewhat better to do that. Renshuu is still just a SRS and SRS are no magical to remember the terms "forever". SRS are good to "put" the terms in your brain, not to master them. And you will feel that later, when you cross the 6000 or 10 000 threshold for words. Even by the 2000 threshold, it start to loose it usefulness. Because you start to accumulate information and SRS doesn't help with organizing that massive pile of individual terms. You need to work more either by theme/topic or by relationship (synonym, opposite, pair, etc).
Otherwise, it will feel like that "it just feels like shoveling water out of a leaking boat". Or way worse because you don't even know what's the problem or what you should focus on. They are people that don't stop and let immersion fix it, but honnestly, that's really slow. And also random (so not really efficient). Also studying by topic is just more fun (especially if something you like) and prevent you from becomming demotivating. And when I said by topic, it means "transversally". Like you study everything (words, sentences, expression, kanji, grammar, immersion, conversation, writing, etc) but limited to a topic (so that you don't burn out). It's like school subject. You didn't use an SRS app at that time but you still did learn tons of words, expression, etc, through simply studying those subject AND using what you studied (that last part is important).
PS: You don't need to make topic's studies complicated at first. It can start with just "casual online greetings". The more limited and focused the better. And by studying, you will notice what you're lacking and can plan you next small goal. After that you just rinse and repeat.
Renshuu is still just a SRS and SRS are no magical to remember the terms "forever". SRS are good to "put" the terms in your brain, not to master them. And you will feel that later, when you cross the 6000 or 10 000 threshold for words. Even by the 2000 threshold, it start to loose it usefulness. Because you start to accumulate information and SRS doesn't help with organizing that massive pile of individual terms. You need to work more either by theme/topic or by relationship (synonym, opposite, pair, etc).
I very strongly agree on that! SRS is great. but you really really need to make the step over to actually using the language. for me, that's mostly reading, but also a lot of listening. (and i suck at production).
Once you actually use what you've learned, and experience it for real, it also sticks way better. When i'm just learning words from the default schedules, i do like 5 a day maximum. when i'm learning words that i've harvested from reading etc. i'll do 20 or 30 in a day easy! they just stick so much better, because they have context and real use and possibly emotional connections and everything!
That's what define intermediate learner for me :3. It's not that you can't do that sooner but switching to a lot more immersion or regular speaking practice with natives is usually too overwhelming for beginners. Even if the sooner you do that, the better... motivation wise, it's a bit more annoying to deal with. But yeah, as soon as you do that, it completely change the game
My favorite example is just joke. I still remember perfectly some jokes that I heard on youtube a few years ago. I remember the words, expression, etc despite not having studied them once. It's like one day vs month of studying separate isolated words or expression. On the other extreme, I remember also words that I level up past level 9 on renshuu and wasn't able to remember them without renshuu... Well, it's fix now but that was annoying and made ponder the point of leveling terms even past level 5 or even 4 (In one of マイコー's article, its level 5 on average for a lot of people apparently). So yeah, I do agree too with you said
Disclaimer for beginners: That's just some extreme examples to provide contrast. Both cases doesn't happen that frequently, so don't get your hope up too much. Most important part is to find a good balance and using renshuu, immersion or small focus session for what it's good at.
I can see that! I am already reading the tadoku graded readers on level 5 and going through the nihongo con teppei podcasts, adding words from both of that sources to a separate deck.
My Japanese level is kinda all over the place. I know a lot of grammar and studied only kanji meanings for a while. So I can understand written text from guessing/looking up the words I am missing. But I feel like vocab is the biggest thing holding back my progress right now, especially with listening and production since again, I do not actually know a lot of words in Japanese. So I think I just have to grind through some sort of beginner deck to get a foundation.
I also think that that is the biggest source of frustration right now. Cause seeing I got like 9000 cards in a deck and only doing 2 new ones a day.. I can do the math on how long it would take to finish the deck and it's not any time soon. At the same time I can not force myself to go faster since I can only remeber so many words a day and again, if I do more new terms the reviews just kill me haha (I got 200 reviews daily as I tried that in the beginning )
So my goal was trying to figure out a way to balance new kanji and vocab in renshuu and you definitely helped me on that. I will try the kanji helper for now see how that works for me :)
I also think that that is the biggest source of frustration right now. Cause seeing I got like 9000 cards in a deck and only doing 2 new ones a day.. I can do the math on how long it would take to finish the deck and it's not any time soon. At the same time I can not force myself to go faster since I can only remeber so many words a day and again, if I do more new terms the reviews just kill me haha (I got 200 reviews daily as I tried that in the beginning )
i think of this as a 10 year project. i used to think it'd be a 5 year project. but 6 years in, learning for about 1 hour a day (plus time spent reading, or consuming other media, or learning about japan), 10 years sounds much more reasonable.
I also think that that is the biggest source of frustration right now. Cause seeing I got like 9000 cards in a deck and only doing 2 new ones a day.. I can do the math on how long it would take to finish the deck and it's not any time soon.
Don't worry and don't even care about it. Because studying those won't have as much effect as you think. It's closer to a gamble than anything else anyway.
Also, it's not linear either. There are tons of words that I learn outside of renshuu throught immersion and will never really need to study. I mean, it's like learning words at school. You didn't use any SRS but you still did learn an incredible amount of words in your native language. Why do you think you won't learn the same way through immersion? Just don't bother about it. SRS is just here to help you and reach immersion. And then it becomes a tool to support immersion. Reaching 9000, 15 000 or even 25 000 words is not as great as you think. Right now, it's 2 words per day. Later, it will be 5 or 10. Or 50 even. Because you will be used to Japanese and words will be easier to remember. Kanji will help too. Your general intuition of Japanese. Your knowledge of Japanese culture. But you know what's after that if you mainly used SRS? An impression that you wasted your time while sitting on a pile of more than 10 000+ words because you can only barely recognize a lot of them. Because that's what SRS is good at. But nothing more. It doesn't help that much with everything else.
So really, just don't bother about that. Do your reviews, learn 2 words per day and repeat. That's good enough. Later, it will be faster anyway. And... Lots of others complicated stuff too. Basically, it won't be linear unless you force yourself into learning in a linear way. I don't recommend that. Clear N5 for example, take a 3 month break to study something else. If you can, do even smaller chunk. Branch out. In every direction that pique your interest. Then come back at regular interval to JLPT or whatever. That will be more fun, faster and easier than one big chunk. Don't even look at it too if it make you frustrated.
Like... Oh well, I don't know x). Just, it's both easier and harder as well as faster and slower than you think. As long as you don't stop. So, might as well not think about it and just have fun xD
Japanese is like a cake. There may be many layers. You're mainly getting a big slice but you're being attacked by all the flavors before you get to realize what it's all about. In a JLPT-like system, you're just left with accepting the existence of its flavor and how it tastes. You're left to figure out the recipe and describing all the flavors. And that's not even the rest of the cake. Not to say that JLPT is bad. It's just not everything, and most places don't go that far into the basis of the material.
I also base this not just from my own observation, but I see it from Japanese people discussing their language themselves too. There are questions brought up which could be answered by the source - the original recipe and how it's done.
For example, did you know that ぬ in 死ぬ is basically a suffix, and it's not something that spells the whole word? So it would be valid to think the kanji would suffice. But, why is it like that? Evidentially, it's one of the few words, at least with ぬ attached, that stuck over time to make it appear the whole word. You'd likely not be taught at the start that it was something else. The whole environment of teaching Japanese to foreigners is like, "Hey, these are the things Japanese has. You spell words like that and deal with grammar attached to it, and practice with all the catechism you can offer. Go have fun with that." You're kind of left out to dry. Not out of disrespect, but it's the quick and dirty way of learning Japanese, probably to make it feel less overwhelming than you feel right now. Obviously that's not working very well.
There were already fundamentals that made Japanese that way in the first place, but you're only learning how it works in the modern sense. 死ぬ used to be classed with a few now-defunct terms that had ぬ attached, and they were considered kind of similar in meaning in some way. 死ぬ somehow (ironically) lived and absorbed that sense, and it got spelled that way. Mystery solved.
I'd also add that outside of grammatical phenomenon like 死ぬ, there's also some words which used to be spelled differently to what you're learning. In the territory of 四つ仮名 for instance, pronunciation changes that happen come into a subset of a 連濁-like function that you had to spell words a certain way when the voice changes happen. This isn't restricted to how you'd voice the beginning of a word, but it can affect spelling at the end of a word. Another reason I find some flaw in the JLPT system for that is that it mostly teaches a singular dialect, the Tokyo dialect, which is how modern Japanese takes its shape. It's not the only valid dialect. 四つ仮名 is treated differently among regions that, as it happens, there's about 4 different ways you spell things. Oddly specific number. I don't expect you to learn them all, but it's why it's still a thing.
水 for example, was historically spelled みづ. In fact, one of its old readings is みつ, that it wouldn't be difficult to guess where that came from. Apparently it got voiced at some point. But as far as spelling is concerned, it got hit by 四つ仮名 where づ was instead spelled with ず. So this is how you get into the wacky way that the whole じ/ぢ - ず/づ thing is resolved. This might not be consistent everywhere, but you may see it when you learn new words.
Suffice to say, it's understandable to be overwhelmed. The depth itself certainly takes the cake (pun intended). However, I would think that at least knowing that there's some key to all of what you need to know would help you navigate it easier. At least to visualize it better. I've changed my entire thinking because of all that. Just to deal with all the stuff you need to know, my best tip is that you're allowed to take in less than how much you want to punch in. Otherwise you're just punching in air and it doesn't feel like progress. It's a really big cake.
