掲示板 Forums - Particle with a verb on たい + Teaching vocally

手を洗いたい is the "safe", textbook choice. 手が洗いたい isn't "wrong", it's just a different way of framing it.

I'm honestly not too sure how to explain the difference.

A different example might help:

水を飲みたい (を marks the object of the action) ← textbook /neutral, focus is on the action

水が飲みたい - focus is on the thing you "desire" (water) ← this is better if you're answering the question "what do you want to drink?"

Meaning is almost the same, which is also what a lot of natives will tell you if you ask them :D (this is about the 水 example)

手が洗いたい is a bit less natural (imo), but you can easily find natives using it. Nuance is similar (I think) to the other example.

Edit: Actually, I really don't mind が in something like this, so I guess it's not always "less natural"

手が洗いたいんだけど、どこで洗ったらいいかな？ ✅

手を洗いたいんだけど、どこで洗ったらいいかな？ ✅

Edit: I think it might be because ~たい is an auxiliary adjective that conjugates like an i-adjective? So it kinda works like in 水が欲しい, but because of the verb (洗う・飲む, etc.), を is also natural. Although I guess "naturalness" depends on the verb/noun.

Edit: I fully stand by 手を洗いたい being more natural (in most contexts). You can look up how much each phrase is used, It's not even close. This is specifically for this phrase, not たい in general.

If I had to choose between the two and ONLY say:

手X洗いたい

I would definitely use が 99% of the time. Because using を feel weird and incomplete IF I only say 手X洗いたい in isolation, in a spontaneous, emotional way. Like:

うーわっ、手が洗いたいなぁ

And I would NOT translate by "I want to wash my hand" but "Urgh, my hand are sweaty" with the right context. When I thought of that sentence, I had a whole scene in my head with someone looking at his sweaty hand say "うーわっ、" while frowning、grimacing, then they would look away, their expression would change to a slightly neutral and (very lightly) disgusted face while moving their head left and right as if they were searching for a place to wash their hand. Note also that I said "うーわっ" instead of "うわ" and I added なぁ. When I try to answer that kind of question, I always run a simulation to check if it's natural or not. And I usually end up with only a few specific situations packed with tons of small details.

But if you had provide us with another specific situation, I may have ended up with a completely different conclusion. That's MY intuitive understanding, or should I say experience, of the language that help me for that kind of question. Which is also and still a WIP btw.

ご飯を食べる前に、手を洗いたい。

For that sentence, on the other hand, を 99% of the time by contrast. Why? Don't know, my simulation say so and if I try to explain, I'm afraid to missguide you because you still can't run those simulation. And I'm pretty sure, I will forgot a few dozens details in my explanation that make me think it's natural in this specific case (which is perfectly clear and full of details in my head but only my head).


I don't like that kind of "silly" questions. Because they are nothing but silly

They are awfully complicated questions which need awfully complicated answers. Either based on intuitive understanding/knowledge or theoritical research. If I answer with the former, I'm unable to remember consciously everything and have will missguide people or just simply said incorrect things, and if I answer with the latter, well, I will write a thesis right here.

So I'm sorry but I can't unconfuse you without confusing you more

Or worse missguide you and make you generalize incorrect rules. Best and safest way to learn how to distinguish that kind of things is through immersion. One day, you will wake up and be like "Oh, I understand now". Or more likely, while looking at beginner questions, you will be like "That feels wrong/correct but I have no idea why or how to explain it".

Also, it's something that most people misunderstand but "school" grammar, like the one you learn on renshuu or in textbook, is not here to explain everything. If anything, "school" grammar avoid to provide explanation for that kind of things. It doesn't and also won't provide you with the appropriate tools and concepts that will allow to understand theoritically that level of details. If anything, "school" grammar do its best to hide the roughness of the language and teach you one thing at a time without overwhelming you in a progressive way. It's WIP. And it's a WIP that need to be completed by immersion and a lot of experience with the language. "School" grammar will never fully connect to real situation. If you want something that "attempt" to do that, you will need to read research article. But even if you do, you won't necessarily get an answer. You will most likely get more questions than before.

But if you want to, do tell me, I like to take a peek at research result or theory from time to time. I watched a series of 30mn video about た the other day (the same た used for the "past" tense). One video per book with a different view. In the second video, the author of the book introduce 6 functions of た (11 or 12 if you count the subcategories). It did helped me a bit. Or maybe not

.
Yeah, don't tell me. I think I'm already out of my "theoritical" grammar phase and don't want to hear about that for a few months.

Anyway, that's my take on the silly/not-so-silly questions:

• "School"/"Standard" grammar is unsatisfying
• Intuitive explanation may missguide you or just be wrong
• Theoritical grammar/research may have an answer but also may just confused you more or demotivate you

Oh and even if my "intuitive" explanation part seems to make sense, I hope you will forget it as soon as you are done here. Hope it was a bit useful in unconfusing or unfrustrating you at least x)
頑張ってね～

EDIT: Yeah, just saw the edit of ギョルギ九十三. I don't think he is wrong and I don't think I'm either. Just not referencing the same situation.

@Shamugan That edit wasn't aimed at you :) I just didn't want OP (or anyone else) to walk away from this thinking that が is "usually more natural" than を when it comes to ～たい. I think it's way more complicated than that, and goes way beyond "textbook" grammar. I mean, you can legit find natives arguing over this XD

I was also just quoting some usage statistics, not referencing different situations:
"手が洗いたい" — 0 on renshuu, 7,330 on Google.
"手を洗いたい" — 1 on renshuu, 120,000 on Google.
Here's an example: https://milltalk.jp/boards/768... (10:1 in favour of を)

This is specifically to push back against the notion that が is somehow (grammatically) the more "natural" fit for 手〇洗いたい in general. Both が and を are correct and can be more/less natural depending on the situation. I'm pretty sure we agree on that :D

PS: I also agree with your examples. Except for picking between が・を in isolation. I don't really think that's worth looking at, because you're pretty much never going to use 手〇洗いたい in full isolation, without any surrounding context. For example the thread I linked has "手を洗いたい！と思う場所を教えてください", and that's "手〇洗いたい！" by itself.

@むじな If we get a few more people we could form Voltron or a 戦隊ロボ Or does Voltron technically count as a 戦隊ロボ

Edit: That thread is actually 44:1 in favour of を, I hadn't loaded all of the comments XD

Edit: Fixed a typo.

Deja vu...

This subject has been brought up here before, and this thread made me think of it since it's particularly concerning the subject with たい sentences this time:

https://www.guidetojapanese.or...

If you care to enlighten yourself, the comment by QS is very educational.

There's also a follow up to that post:

https://www.guidetojapanese.or...

@むじな

"somehow your different angles, read together, make up a wonderfully comprehensive framework for clearing up this difficulty."
That's what communities should be about :D
Just sharing and picking what help you :3 (At least in my head, that's what an ideal community is about )

"Also, I am hereby founding a lobby group for @ギョルギ九十三 and @Shamugan to form a 漫才 group."
You say that but I'm currently seriously working on my 突っ込み and ボケ skills
Not to seriously form a group but at least to be able to play a bit with some friends.
I had some succes but most of the time, I'm just physically unable to speak fast enough to "#突っ込む" (otherwise it's not that funny) and I'm not "smart enough to be stupid" like a good ボケ (It takes quite some skills and brain power to perform a good ボケ :v)
Anyway, maybe one day, I love manzai

@ギョルギ九十三

Yeah, I know, you added the edit before I could post so unless you had the ability to predict the future, I doubt you could have aimed that edit at me
"Both が and を are correct and can be more/less natural depending on the situation. I'm pretty sure we agree on that :D"

I will go even a step futher and word it a bit stronger, it's fully dependant on the context and correctness or naturalness shouldn't be judge without context :D
So, yeah, we do agree (I think? xD)

"Except for picking between が・を in isolation."
For that part too x). I just have a twisted way to explain things that sometimes works and sometimes failed majestically xD
Like "Yeah, I may say things like that but behind I never think without context and I usually can't explain everything here on a forum, except if I decide to write a thesis here and I won't, so don't trust intuitive explanation completely. They may be correct or may be also very useful but may also missguide you if you are not like them, if you don't think the same way or have the experience of the language".
Like, when someone give you an answer, you always only see the tip of the iceberg. You don't "see" the way they think or the experience they have. So... hum, like for grammar point, it's hard to judge the correctness of their intuitive interpretations without their contexts, I guess?
Looping back to my answer to むじな, if you can't judge then just pick what make sense and is constructive for you at your level for now. That's what communities should be about and what make them interesting :D

Anyway, something like that, I always try to say too much things at the same time .
Ok, I'm done
バイバイ