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Top > 日本語を勉強しましょう / Let's study Japanese! > Anything About Japanese



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Why is this wrong?

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0
1 day ago
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Shamugan
Level: 786

It's not. Just not the expected answer.


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1 day ago
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はんゆ38
Level: 423

のように is grammatically wrong as it would have to be のような and not のように. Now のような means something like "a desert-like hand".

You have to be careful about what is bound to a subject or object (i.e. a noun). In this case, everything before が is bound to the subject . Hence, the meaning changes completely.

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1 day ago
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Shamugan
Level: 786

That's because you process "のように" as a single block. Even if it's before が, it won't be interpreted as modifying the subject, because of に, and everything won't be interpreted as the subject. But with な, that would be the case and it would change the meaning.

So, it's not wrong grammatically. Just maybe a bit uncommon because it kinda give some dramatic effect.

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24 hours ago
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It effectively parses as のように、してる, so there's no grammatical issue with のように appearing in sequence. It just feels a bit more dramatic or literary, which can make it sound awkward in casual speech. Honestly, the register mismatch is strong enough that I actually don't mind it being flagged as "wrong".

Fronted adverbial phrases like ~のように are actually quite common in literary writing. They modify the entire following predicate rather than the nearest noun. For example (and there are plenty like this):

のようにぎていく = のように + ぎていく, not のように + がぎていく.

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23 hours ago
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Shamugan
Level: 786

Yeah but register perception is a thing that takes years and a lot of immersion.
At least the grammar/order is correct. Good enough for now, it's fine to take it as is.
If the question was about register as well, sure. But it's not and you're left with a "you're wrong".
That why I don't like grammar question in app x). Especially as self-learner (If you have someone to guide you tho, it's just completely different).

Also, just in case someone misunderstand, it may sound awkard if misused in casual speech but that doesn't mean, it's not used or not common. It can be quite common with people that like to play with that kind of speech, especially amongst friend. With strangers on the other hand, that would definitly feel akward most of the time.

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22 hours ago
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Shamugan (064, 17:25)

Yeah but register perception is a thing that takes years and a lot of immersion.
At least the grammar/order is correct. Good enough for now, it's fine to take it as is.
If the question was about register as well, sure. But it's not and you're left with a "you're wrong".
That why I don't like grammar question in app x). Especially as self-learner (If you have someone to guide you tho, it's just completely different).

Also, just in case someone misunderstand, it may sound awkard if misused in casual speech but that doesn't mean, it's not used or not common. It can be quite common with people that like to play with that kind of speech, especially amongst friend. With strangers on the other hand, that would definitly feel akward most of the time.

​Do you think I should report the question saying my current answer should also be valid or should I leave it like that?

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22 hours ago
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Shamugan
Level: 786
リンク・リンク (064, 23:51)
Shamugan (064, 17:25)

Yeah but register perception is a thing that takes years and a lot of immersion.
At least the grammar/order is correct. Good enough for now, it's fine to take it as is.
If the question was about register as well, sure. But it's not and you're left with a "you're wrong".
That why I don't like grammar question in app x). Especially as self-learner (If you have someone to guide you tho, it's just completely different).

Also, just in case someone misunderstand, it may sound awkard if misused in casual speech but that doesn't mean, it's not used or not common. It can be quite common with people that like to play with that kind of speech, especially amongst friend. With strangers on the other hand, that would definitly feel akward most of the time.

​Do you think I should report the question saying my current answer should also be valid or should I leave it like that?

​Up to you x)
I don't why マイコー decided that only this variation is correct. I'm not even sure that he even thought about it.
It could be for technical reason like not having the time or money to create perfect questions with every possible answers. In that case, maybe he will agree.
Or maybe, it's for pedagogical reasons and it's deliberate. Like not wanting you to learn less common speech before you mastered the most common and neutral speech.
So I don't know. Well, you can report if it really bother you. And マイコー will just say yes or no. At worst, it would be some feedback on the question.

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22 hours ago
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マイコー
Level: 333

The system does not have a list of all possible variations - it uses a set of rules to determine if other orderings are grammatically correct, and then has additional per-sentence markings when needed.

As to this one, while it would be nice to let the system swap those two out, from a flow perspective, I don't feel like it's quite as natural.

By moving that all to the front, you're separating the adverbial phrase (all that stuff that ends with the に) from the thing you're modifying - the verb. The way it is ordered in your answer puts the phrase next to the noun, and that's a mismatched modifier.

4
20 hours ago
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マイコー (065, 2:46)

By moving that all to the front, you're separating the adverbial phrase (all that stuff that ends with the に) from the thing you're modifying - the verb. The way it is ordered in your answer puts the phrase next to the noun, and that's a mismatched modifier.

I don't see how separating the adverbial phrase from the verb is an issue. You can find dozens of examples on Renshuu itself that do exactly that. Am I missing something?

  • のようにせたらなぁ。
  • のようにんでみたい。
  • ヒーローのようにいたい。

In all of these, ~のように is separated from the verb by a noun phrase, yet they're perfectly acceptable.

Structurally, how is のようにしてる any different?

These sentences seem to rely on the same structural principle. If separating ~のように from the predicate by a noun phrase is considered a modifier mismatch in のようにしてる, then the same should apply to the other examples, no?

I agree that it's less natural, but I don't agree with that reasoning. Perceived naturalness/expected answer order and syntactic structure are related, but not the same thing.

In my opinion, this is a style issue rather than a structural one. Something like のように、ききっていた would sound much more natural. It's still a strange thing to say, but you get the point. It's just a more "written scene" version of the same pattern.
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18 hours ago
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マイコー
Level: 333
Those are some excellent points. The bottom two examples don't really fit into your argument (which I think is a valid one), as the object + を is still part of the verb phrase, and so the に could easily go both before or after the を pair.

In fact, I think the one is quite similar in that with potential verbs, you've got a bit of a stronger link between WORDがPotential, and in many cases (寿べれますか?), the が is replacing the を in the verb phrase.

That's not to say that there aren't some or many other examples of your argument, but while the renshuu system would ideally see this is a grammatical alternative, I do think

adverb-phrase subject が verb-phrase

is not going to sound quite as natural as

subject が adverb-phrase verb-phrase


This is not coming from a deep-seated grounding of the grammatical elements, so I could be wrong on a purely technical basis - it's more of a feeling I'm getting comparing the two sentences. So, I cannot really argue my point further than this :)
2
18 hours ago
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That's fair. I think we're mostly in agreement. I was never arguing that [subject が adverb-phrase verb-phrase] and [adverb-phrase subject が verb-phrase] are interchangeable, or that the latter is always equally natural.

My point is simply that the second pattern is a valid construction that can sound perfectly natural in the right context. Whether it does depends on the style, register, and effect the writer is aiming for.

To me, it's a fairly ordinary literary/narrative construction, though it just doesn't quite work in this specific example :)


Here's a better set of Renshuu example sentences, (hopefully) showing that an intervening [subject が] between an adverbial phrase and a verb phrase isn't inherently a problem:

あののように、ていた。→ [のように] + [が]

このアニメのように、使ってみたいんだ! → [のように] + [が]

はビリヤードののようにがつるつるだ 。→ [のように] + [が]

ザーッとのようにってた 。→ [のように] + [が]


のようにしてる。→ [のように] + [が] (our sentence)

And then, something like のように、していた feels much less jarring to me, because it better matches how this structure is typically used in narrative contexts. Not a direct alternative, just an example.


A TLDR of my argument:

Is the structure grammatical? → YES

Is the structure common/possible? → YES

Does this specific sentence sound natural? → NO


PS: Just as a side note, the interesting part for me is the language discussion itself, not really whether the parser should or shouldn't accept it. I'd still probably say it shouldn't be accepted in this case.

By the way, feel free to ignore me, I don't want to take up too much of your time :D

2
10 hours ago
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